Angel, Season 1 eps 11-15

12 Aug

Somnambulist has a special place in my heart. Yes, there’s the Kate thing, and I do have a Kate thing*, but I hate ‘Sense and Sensitivity’ (another Kate episode) with such a passion that it’s the lowest of all on my Season 1 ratings scale and I didn’t even mention it in my AtS 1.1-1.10 post (that icky touchy-feely-dorky dialogue! Angel in *that outfit*! Blah!).

So it’s not just Kate-lurv feeding the Somn-lurv. I think what I like is the ‘coming out’ aspect: Angel being forced to reveal to a colleague/acquaintance that he is a vampire, and the fall-out that has on the Angel/Kate relationship. I mean, she was starting to seriously crush out on him by this point, and then he opens this whole scary world to her that she can’t handle. You thought she had issues before this….

*But the vicious rumor that I stalked Elisabeth Rohm at the 2000 Bronze Posting Board Party is just that, a vicious rumor. In point of fact, *she* led me on by grabbing me around the waist when I asked her to pose for a fan pic!

For more thoughts on Somnambulist and other Kate Lockley eps, see my essay, “It’s Not Easy Being Blue: Understanding Kate Lockley”.

“Expecting” marks the first in the almost yearly “why is someone always trying to impregnate Cordelia with their demon spawn?” episodes. The other two are, of course, “Epiphany” in Season 2 and “Apocalypse, Nowish” in Season 4. Cordelia gets a reprieve in Season 3 when it’s Darla who gets knocked up instead.

AtS: a good, old-fashioned show where the men beat up the corpses and the women have the babies.

One of the humorous aspects of season 1 was the constant hard time the writers gave Angel. In almost every episode, there would be a gay/effeminate jab at the Broody One. Angel “the magnificent poof” with the Nancy-boy hair gel, who Cordelia’s friends assume is gay in Expecting, who is the one who should be wearing the push-up bra in The Ring, yada yada. Angel with the clothes and the hair, the almost total lack of a sex-life, the sensitive broody artist who likes ballet and opera and is proud of his good penmanship. Angel can afford the teasing because he kicks A better than anyone.

“Expecting” also raises a vitally important question. You get the impression from this episode that Cordelia was not a virgin before “Expecting”, and yet Xander *was* a virgin when he slept with Faith. So no Cordy/Xander sex. Any speculation on when Cordelia lost her virginity?

One thing that Expecting makes clear is that joining up with Angel was good for Wesley. I mean, yeah, ultimately it introduced him to his dark side and got him killed, but at least in seasons 1 and 2 and part of 3, it gave Wesley a chance to be a fighter and not just a book-man, which increased his confidence and allowed the warrior for good within to come out. OTOH, Wesley got his share of gay/effeminate jokes, too, over the years (including in Expecting).

Almost from the inception of my website, I had Evil on BtVS broken down into discrete categories: Predatory Evil, Evil-as-Chaos, Evil-as-Corruption, and Evil-as-Order. I didn’t categorize Good in the same way for a long time. “She” was one of the episodes that made me realize I *could* sub-divide Good with the same categories. This is the episode where I identified “Good-as-Chaos” (I think “Buffy vs. Dracula” turned me onto “Predatory Good”, and “Good-as-Corruption” came from “Gingerbread”).

The idea popped in my head when the Oden Tal demon calls Jiera “the bringer of chaos”. From his point of view, she is destroying his society. From her point of view, she is fighting for the basic rights of women. It’s that same interesting sympathetic angle you get on revolutionaries and terrorists in Deep Space Nine’s Bajoran/Cardassian conflict.

Another interesting thing about “She” is that that episode was supposed to mark the debut of a new, recurring character on the show, Jhiera. According to a TV guide article that came out at the time, she was supposed to be an occasional, morally ambiguous ally to the gang who also had her own agenda and got in their way from time to time too. Sort of “our pal the feminist terrorist from Oden Tal”. Since she wasn’t that popular with fans, though, they invented a different character to play a similar role on the series, and named him Charles Gunn.

The highlight of “She” on DVD, of course, are the outtakes of Wesley and Angel dancing at Cordelia’s party. Check out the closing credits and dance like a dork!

I don’t have a whole lot to say about “IGYUMS”. I liked the concept of looking at demon possession from a religious point of view, and of course the twist with the sociopathic child was chillingly clever. I sort of wish they’d explored Angel’s connection to the Christian religion more in the series as a whole, and his relationship to Catholicism in particular. But that’s one place Joss rarely goes, as it opens up a can of worms he doesn’t like to chew on (he’d rather face the hordes of angry viewers complaining about Willow being a lesbian after “New Moon Rising” than explore *actual* religions and the religious beliefs of his characters, like Willow being Jewish. Hence the need to invent the PTBs). At any rate, the only reason Angel even blinks at the nun in this episode (“nuns are my thing!”) is because she’s nobody’s victim. Tough-ass nun.

Angel(us) and Darla

It’s hard to believe that “The Prodigal” is only the first in what will be a series of flashback episodes that flesh out the Angel(us)/Darla relationship. That relationship is so ingrained in my psyche now that it feels like it’s been there longer.

Maybe it has. That short sequence in “Becoming” made Darla intriguing in a way that season 1 BtVS didn’t, but up until The Prodigal, all we had of Darla was season 1 of BtVS and Angel’s siring in Becoming, and that didn’t tell us much. Watching that sequence in the episode “Angel” where Darla tells Buffy that she and Angel were a thing for “several generations” just made you want to go, “Yeah, sure, sounds epic. *yawn* What kept you together? Crazy glue?,” the time it first aired.

So The Prodigal was just more back story at the time. But it was hella back story, harbinger of things to come. Yes, I am a frothing-at-the-mouth Darla/Angel(us) shipper.

Angel(us) and fathers

Trevor Lockley: “You got any kids, Angel?”
Angel: “No.”
Trevor Lockley: “Right. Then don’t think you know how a father feels, or why he does the things he does.”

What interests me in this episode, re: Kate is not her relationship with her father, but Angel’s relationship with the relationship between Kate and her father.

Retired police officer Trevor Lockley is making some money on the side protecting guys he thinks are trafficking illegal auto parts. Or that he *hopes* are trafficking illegal auto parts. They’re not, they’re big teh_ev0l!!1! demon thugs.

At any rate, Angel wants to protect Kate from being hurt by her father. He’s seen Trevor Lockley in action before, after all–the way Trevor threw Kate’s magic-induced confrontation of him in Sense and Sensitivity back in her face. So in classic paternalistic fashion, Angel sets out to confront Trevor and save Trevor on his own without telling Kate about Trevor’s misdeeds *or* his investigation of them, and without giving Kate a chance to be involved in any way.

So it makes sense that Kate would blame Angel for her father’s death even though Angel didn’t *do* the actual killing.

Kate’s relationship with her dad is contrasted with Liam’s relationship with his own father. Liam wants to blame all his misbehavior on the impossibility of *ever* pleasing his father or meeting his father’s impossible standards for behavior. His father wants to blame all Liam’s misbehavior on his son’s inability to understand that a father just wants the best for/from his son. Liam finally has enough and leaves home and heads right into the arms of the predatory blonde who will become the major influence on his new unlife the way his father was the major influence on his human life.

Darla’s loving amusement at VampLiam’s insistence upon slaughtering his whole family to “get the last word” is now a legendary scene among Buffyverse fans:

Darla: Your victory over him took but moments. But his defeat of you will last lifetimes.
VampLiam: What are you talking about? He can’t defeat me now.
Darla: Nor can he ever approve of you… in this world, or any other. What we once were informs all that we have become. The same love will infect our hearts, even if they no longer beat. Simple death won’t change that.
VampLiam: Is this the work of love?

One of the masterpieces of the season.

Note to self: gotta revisit this one. It will be essential background later in season 6.

90 Responses to “Angel, Season 1 eps 11-15”

  1. natgel August 12, 2004 at 1:26 pm #

    Re: Fergus, Liam & Bon Bon, er, I mean Connor

    I’ve decided Liam’s father’s name was Fergus.

    Fergus! That’s awesome! *g*

    Yes, I’m spending *a lot* of time lately sorting out Connor’s feelings towards the champion thing and towards his powers. He was definitely *off* the idea in his pre-Home days, and I think the shock of having all that return to him in “Origin” made him off the idea at the end of that episode. You do see him being kind of *keen* on the idea, a little, prior to going into that fight with Sahjhan.

    Connor of the post-Home pre-Origin is a real dork. Kind of like Andrew (you know he’s got a thing for Rogue!) but less extreme. So I guess he reacted to the whole Super Boy thing just like I’d imagined him to – as a Sci-F geek (excluding, as you’re well aware, the Star Wars saga :p) I know I would have been thrilled to find out I have Spechul Sooper Powerz!!! I think if Angel would have asked him to help out with demons and fighting evil at that point, he’d probably say yes.
    After he got his memories back, you can just *tell* he’s different. He got a taste of both worlds (well, not so much as a taste as much as a *lifetime* but you get my drift) he realizes he likes normal so much more. Partly because his 1st life was so full of bad things and he feels that his second life as a normal boy was so much better. He probably associates fighting demons, being a champion etc etc.. to his first lifetime, which he doesn’t want, so he drops the whole fighting thing altogether.

    But then, in “Not Fade Away”, he *does* come back to join his father’s fight, and it probably is with the benefit of the time gap between Origin and Not Fade Away. He absorbs everything that’s happened to him in the past year, everything that once happened to him in his old life, everything that “happened” to him in his false memories, and that fact of his supernatural powers that he can’t get rid of, and decides he can’t, at the very least, let his father go into a battle Angel obviously expects to die in without helping.

    I think what made Connor help his father in NFA is that while he doesn’t really want to be a part of it, he ows it to Angel for all he has given up for him. And also his right and wrong judgment outweighted his decision to stay away from that world.

    Man, I have such a hard time trying to make a point. God I hate English.

  2. neshaffer August 12, 2004 at 1:28 pm #

    Well, I think in Angel’s case it might have been interesting. Darla was very anti-religion and encouraged Angelus’ anti-religious actions and sentiments. It’s possible this fixation on nuns, purity, yada, yada was all post-vamping, but I wonder what religion meant to Liam, or to Liam’s family/father.

  3. yuki_onna August 12, 2004 at 1:35 pm #

    Well, I mean in the sense of Willow, and then in the sense of giving a judeo-christian framework to the show…I don’t think that would have made for a better show. Part of what made it profound was the lack of surety about the universe.

  4. neshaffer August 12, 2004 at 1:37 pm #

    Re: Fergus, Liam & Bon Bon, er, I mean Connor

    It’s a good analysis, and probably what Mutant Enemy was doing with Connor in those final eps.

    The difficulty for me is… where do you go from here, Connor-boy? Post-NFA? He can *try* to live a normal life, but he’s not a normal boy and never will be. He has these powers, and yes, I imagine using them reminds him a little too much of Quortoth and the pain of that old life that he’d like very much to forget.

    But you can’t compartmentalize those memories. Well, you can, but that kind of thing has a way of coming back and biting you in the ass.

    And you can’t just ignore the superstrength, durability, and senses. You can try to live your life as normally as possible *despite* them, but what if, say, you see someone getting mugged? Are you just going to stand by and not help when you can?

    This is all an interesting question for me, hence The Destroyer.

  5. natgel August 12, 2004 at 1:53 pm #

    Re: Fergus, Liam & Bon Bon, er, I mean Connor

    I think The Destroyer tries to answer these questions very nicely. For the most part, I don’t believe Connor will continue to live a normal life after NFW, I think he’ll try to continue with the somewhat perfect life pattern W&H set up for him, but he’ll be challenged morally and mentally and he WILL find that he can’t stand aside while bad things happen around him. Connor’s want to do good. He just needs time to deal with things.

    Another thing is that I don’t think Jasmine was Connor’s reason to be. He has a bigger destiny than just being a tool to bring forth a (crappy} plot device.

  6. neshaffer August 12, 2004 at 1:57 pm #

    Exploring character’s beliefs is not the same thing as giving a Judeo-Christian framework to the show. They are, after all, only *beliefs* and say nothing about the larger reality of the universe the characters are living in. It can potentially give more flesh to the psychology of the characters themselves, however–beliefs inform who they are and why they do what they do, even beliefs they were taught and then rejected.

  7. yuki_onna August 12, 2004 at 1:59 pm #

    I just can’t see an episode where this could be explored in a non-offensive way and still stay true to the voice of the show.

  8. neshaffer August 12, 2004 at 2:06 pm #

    Re: Fergus, Liam & Bon Bon, er, I mean Connor

    Another thing is that I don’t think Jasmine was Connor’s reason to be. He has a bigger destiny than just being a tool to bring forth a (crappy} plot device.

    Oh, I *always* believed this. I think it was built up in the whole “Miracle child”, “Nyzian Prophecy” stuff of season 3, and then in Sahjhan’s line in Forgiving, when, after he thought he’d done away with Connor for good, he said to Angel, “Too bad, your boy had a big future.”

    Yes, some of that future might have been bringing forth Jasmine, but *at the very least* beyond that he was destined to kill Sahjhan.

    So the fact that Mutant Enemy erased his memories and gave him a “normal life” in “Home” about made me explode. I thought, “What about his ‘big future’??? It couldn’t have been about bringing forth Jasmine only to kill her two months later! How is that a ‘big future’? And living in the suburbs and becoming an accountant or whatever isn’t a ‘big future’ either!”

    So I was most pleased and relieved when they returned his memories in Origin and allowed him to fulfill at least one obvious part of his destiny–whacking that Sahjhan S.O.B.

    What’s next after that for The Miracle Child/Destroyer? Only fanfic can tell.

    Or possibly T.V. movies. ; )

  9. neshaffer August 12, 2004 at 2:09 pm #

    Any evidence they were divorced?

  10. neshaffer August 12, 2004 at 2:20 pm #

    Re: My father, myself

    Is that an unpopular opinion? Because that’s *exactly* my opinion, and I despised Angel for it. That was not a moment for “tough love”, no matter *what* Connor had done. Angel put his “career” ahead of fatherhood, he put his expecations for Connor ahead of seeing who Connor had become and could become, he let *jealousy* get in the way of reaching out to his son, he let himself be turned into Angelus, thereby neglecting his son so that Connor could be manipulated by Evil!Cordelia.

    And after all the struggles Connor had that season trying to find a place for himself and failing and getting to the end of his rope, Angel doesn’t step in with, “OK, now I’ll be a dad to you and help you through this”. He sends his son away to let other people raise him. He lets a spell re-make Connor, and feels all noble about having done so, and he doesn’t give Connor any kind of heads-up about it.

    Angel with the paternalistic decisions and the difficulty with intimacy and high expectations thing again.

    At least he’s consistent.

  11. neshaffer August 12, 2004 at 2:42 pm #

    Re: Vincent K

    Well, I’d make a recommendation of another VK movie to see, but they’re all very different and it’s a matter of taste. “Masterminds” was sort of a “kid power” movie. VK has much more “adult” roles in Another Day in Paradise and Crime and Punishment in Suburbia, although his characters *are* kids. They’re just darker movies with more “mature” subject matter. The same goes for “The Unsaid”, probably the most Connor-esque of his various roles (screwed up late-season-4 Connor). “Luckytown” is kind of a bad gangster movie, although VK is more or less “the sweet kid” caught up in the events.

    Hard to say. I’m working on seeing them all, which *isn’t* easy!

  12. neshaffer August 12, 2004 at 2:44 pm #

    I just can’t see an episode where this could be explored in a non-offensive way and still stay true to the voice of the show.

    Hence why I think ME avoided it.

  13. ironed_orchid August 12, 2004 at 10:04 pm #

    Re: i don’t have a sexy faith icon but…

    I just haven’t heard it before, but yeah, it makes sense the way you say it. I was thinking about fanfic tho, in which characters’ sexual motivations get extra special scrutiny. Or they ought to.

  14. ironed_orchid August 12, 2004 at 10:06 pm #

    thanks

    I haven’t really being very involved in much fandom of any sort, and its a new term to me.

  15. neshaffer August 12, 2004 at 10:23 pm #

    Plus he had to be around at least in season 2 to *see* the cross on her bedroom wall.

  16. neshaffer August 13, 2004 at 6:15 am #

    Re: daddy rosenberg

    BtVS is all about the moms. Joss saves dads for AtS.

  17. neshaffer August 13, 2004 at 9:41 am #

    Re: My father, myself

    I got the impression it was unpopular — that most people thought Connor deserved it because of what he’d done to Angel

    I’m not saying Connor didn’t deserve discipline. He needed to face consequences for what he did. But throwing the kid out wasn’t the way to do it. It’s Angel avoiding helping him, rather than helping him.

    That whole scenario really reminded me of when adopted children are reunited with birth parents as adults and it goes poorly — the aftermath of perceived rejection on both sides can be horribly messy.

    Part of my point. Of course, Connor was raised to *hate* Angel, and his behavior isn’t surprising, but in the last three eps of season 3 and through the course of season 4, Connor kept testing Angel’s love in a variety of ways, wanting to see if there was really something there for him, and of course while Angel *did* love him, Angel was a bit self-involved and couldn’t see those tests for what they were. So Connor went elsewhere.

    It’s impossible to imagine Wesley, frex, declaring, as Willow does, “I’m not your sidekick!” He knows he’s the sidekick.

    Willow knew that when it came to slaying, she *was* the sidekick. She has a line in Buffy vs. Dracula (season 5, a full year after her “not a sidekick!” line) where she says, “I think we just put a finger on why we’re the sidekicks.” When it comes to magic and handling certain situations, Willow is *not* the sidekick and she knows it. Wesley knows the same, or at least, he came to as the seasons progressed. In season 1, he definitely was a sidekick, and a sycophantic one at that. But slowly, through finding his own confidence in season 2 when Angel left, and then in seasons 3 and 4 when he left himself, he became his own man so that when he rejoined Angel, he wasn’t the sidekick when it came to his own expertise. Just like Willow.

  18. crimsonsenya August 13, 2004 at 12:49 pm #

    Whoa!

    You have over hundred comments on this post! I was going to join the conversation, but I’ve been feeling so low today that there was no guarantees what I could have said. I didn’t like Kate and I definitely didn’t like her near Angel, but I totally understand that you like her: smart, independent and beautiful, a strong female character :D. The actress’ loss to leave the show for L&O. They don’t even have character development!

    Anyhow, Sonambulist is one of my season1 favs too. I think Joss Whedon never explored Catholicism as a religion directly, because he’s an atheist. (I’m not saying an atheist couldn’t do it) and isn’t the attitude towards religion very ambivalent in United States. I have the impression that there are the fundamentalists on the other hand (Southern Babtists, ehem), and then there is the no-religion policy of the state(no religion in school etc. Of course, you have the religion like cult of the state with your oaths and stuff). Instead of entering in a direct debate, Joss deals a lot with mythical patterns that appear in Christianity/Catholicism.(You know this :D) He doesn’t preach, he shows.

    According to a TV guide article that came out at the time, she was supposed to be an occasional, morally ambiguous ally to the gang who also had her own agenda and got in their way from time to time too. Sort of “our pal the feminist terrorist from Oden Tal”. Since she wasn’t that popular with fans, though, they invented a different character to play a similar role on the series, and named him Charles Gunn.

    Thank God they didn’t go on with Jhiera! I think that the TV guide description could fit Gwen from Season4? I’m sure someone has already said it. I never hought of Gunn as morally ambiguous: a tough streetwise guy who had to do what he must tosurvive and protect his own, but never morally ambiguous in a way that Gwen was or Jhiera could have been.

    It came to me that they should have done an episode(Season4) with flashbacks to Liam’s relationship with his father and then Angel’s relationship with Connor. Perhaps that could even be a plot bunny for Ats Season6 :D.

    What we once were informs all that we have become. The same love will infect our hearts, even if they no longer beat. Simple death won’t change that. That line has also been a reference point to many Spike redemptionistas, on why Spike even without a soul is different from all the other vampires.

  19. crimsonsenya August 13, 2004 at 12:56 pm #

    Re: Vincent K

    I’m working on seeing them all, which *isn’t* easy!

    About Ricky6: I alreasy told you the wanker stopped downloading in 99% and then I found out the file was corrupted… So no Ricky for Ki :(. (BTW, I made that icon today, when Angelus showed me how to put two pics transparently together.)

  20. neshaffer August 13, 2004 at 1:04 pm #

    Re: Whoa!

    You have over hundred comments on this post! I was going to join the conversation, but I’ve been feeling so low today that there was no guarantees what I could have said.

    I know! There was some craziness here yesterday!

    Why are you feeling low, honey?

  21. neshaffer August 13, 2004 at 1:11 pm #

    Re: Whoa!

    It came to me that they should have done an episode(Season4) with flashbacks to Liam’s relationship with his father and then Angel’s relationship with Connor. Perhaps that could even be a plot bunny for Ats Season6 :D.

    It already is. And I’m writing it. I’ve been working on it for a couple months now.
    ; ) ; )

    As for religion in the United States, our relationship with it is very ambivalent. If you listen to the people who are in office now, they’d tell you we’re a deeply religious nation, and *in fact* a Christian nation, and have been since the beginning.

    They seem to forget our Founding Fathers were Deists. And the current leaders fight tooth and nail to get their own personal religious beliefs put into law. Of course, they have to do it by making arguments that *aren’t* based on religion (because of separation of church and state), but we all know WHY they want these laws.

    Joss is an atheist, but I don’t think that’s the only reason he didn’t make a lot of religious references in BtVS and AtS. The problem is if he had, they would have been somewhat critical and honest because that’s his feelings on the matter. The backlash would have been HUGE if he’d done that. The religious people in the country think the news and media and television belong to the godless atheists and they would protest loudly about this alleged fact.

    *sigh*

  22. neshaffer August 13, 2004 at 1:14 pm #

    Re: Vincent K

    I saw that icon over in ‘s LJ! I need to figure out how to do that.

    As for Ricky 6, I’m still working on this new source, but it’s not a sure thing. Where did you find a downloadable version online?

  23. neshaffer August 13, 2004 at 1:17 pm #

    Re: Whoa!

    What we once were informs all that we have become. The same love will infect our hearts, even if they no longer beat. Simple death won’t change that.

    That line has also been a reference point to many Spike redemptionistas, on why Spike even without a soul is different from all the other vampires.

    See, I think that line actually makes Spike more like other vampires. Or, more to the point, it argues that other vampires are like Spike: redeemable, if you can find the human who once was inside them.

  24. londonkds August 13, 2004 at 1:19 pm #

    It also helps that Lilah’s lines and SR’s performance in Home were so reminiscent of Lucifer’s retirement speech in Sandman

  25. crimsonsenya August 13, 2004 at 1:54 pm #

    Re: Whoa!

    It is quite depressing to hear( you are warned ;P), ’cause it is about a diagnosed depression and an anxiety neurosis (believe it or not) and of an epilepsy that has been undiagnosed and uncared for too long…

  26. neshaffer August 13, 2004 at 1:57 pm #

    Re: Whoa!

    I’m so sorry to hear that. Was that diagnosis about you? You don’t have to tell me, but if you do, I’ll screen these entries.

    I was diagnosed with an anxiety disorder about five years ago. I have been taking medication for it ever since, and probably will for the rest of my life unless it magically goes away. I take antidepressants every now and then too, when I need to.

    {{hugs}}

    Like your new default icon, btw. ; )

  27. crimsonsenya August 13, 2004 at 2:03 pm #

    Re: Whoa!

    Besides, that my father died this summer… and we’ve had all these f*ing financial problems cause Angelus has been unemployed and, yesterday, he got sick again (he was six almost half a year inable to move because of a painful back thing… Sorry, I won’t bother you more with this. The list could go on and on, but literally Thank God we are still breathing (though I wouldn’t have minded not, at one point).

  28. neshaffer August 13, 2004 at 2:05 pm #

    Re: Whoa!

    You’re not bothering me.

    {{hugs}}

  29. crimsonsenya August 13, 2004 at 2:11 pm #

    Re: Whoa!

    The problem is if he had, they would have been somewhat critical and honest because that’s his feelings on the matter. The backlash would have been HUGE if he’d done that. The religious people in the country think the news and media and television belong to the godless atheists and they would protest loudly about this alleged fact.

    I’ve been raised in a fundamentalist thinking protestant family and we didn’t have a tv! I moved out as soon as I got 18. (I love/d my parents, we just have a different view on what is the essence of christianity.)

  30. neshaffer August 13, 2004 at 2:13 pm #

    Re: Whoa!

    I’ve been raised in a fundamentalist thinking protestant family and we didn’t have a tv! I moved out as soon as I got 18. (I love/d my parents, we just have a different view on what is the essence of christianity.)

    Even though I am no longer a Christian, I still respect what *I* see as the essence of Christianity, which is the things Jesus said in the Four Gospels of the New Testament. There’s a lot of wisdom there.

  31. crimsonsenya August 13, 2004 at 2:21 pm #

    Re: Vincent K

    I’m not sure I should post it on your place cause this is so public ;P I’ll put it on my LJ, ok.

  32. neshaffer August 13, 2004 at 2:23 pm #

    Re: Vincent K

    OK! Thanks.

  33. crimsonsenya August 13, 2004 at 2:32 pm #

    Re: Whoa!

    It would mean that Angelus was redeemable too ;). This connects to the question of how separate Angel and Aus actually are.

  34. neshaffer August 13, 2004 at 2:38 pm #

    Re: Whoa!

    It would mean that Angelus was redeemable too ;). This connects to the question of how separate Angel and Aus actually are.

    We’re exploring that in our season 6 fic. Basically arguing that “Angelus” is just the negative personality traits of Liam, exaggerated by the lack of a soul and the presence of a demon, while “Angel” are just the good personality traits of Liam, brought out by the presence of a soul. We are going back to look at Liam in a flashback during the period of his life between who he was in Spin the Bottle and who he was in the Becoming/The Prodigal flashbacks. Seeing how his relationship with his father helped change him from a basically good kid into the whore-y, boozy, fighty Liam.

    We are also going back to look at Spike’s human life, and exploring both his negative and positive personality traits that informed the vampire he became.

    One of the ideas to get across is that Liam was no devil and William was no saint, but that they both were human beings with problems and that who they were says a lot about the kind of issues they had as vampires.

  35. crimsonsenya August 13, 2004 at 2:55 pm #

    Re: Whoa!

    You too? I should have guessed why we get postingwise along ;D!
    I’d appreciate the screening. I don’t have a problem with telling about my mental health problems, but there might be some people who could read this and freak out.

    I’ve been really depressed for about seven years. Now I’ve been to sychotherapy for two and a half years. I have depression with manic tendencies (I’m kinda bipolar, hah) and anxiety disorder/neurosis. I had a medication three years ago for one year, but it wasn’t a suitable one. This spring I got a new one, but it triggered epileptic seizures, that I’ve had before, (however I didn’t get the diagnosis and I thought it was only stress related) so i had to end the medication and because I’ll be getting finally med for the epilepsy, there’s no point of starting to take another anti-depressant.

    There is also the fact that the epilepsy may have been one of the major reasons for my depression…
    *hugs you madly*

  36. neshaffer August 13, 2004 at 3:01 pm #

    Re: Whoa!

    Sorry about the epilepsy. Wow.

    I went through a severe anxiety disorder back before I was diagnosed (I remember it was season 2 of BtVS that spring). It expressed itself as social anxiety, as well as physical symptoms. Other than going to work, I stayed in my house A LOT. I had one good friend who dragged me out once a week for dinner, and who finally got me to a doctor that December.

    I tried a bunch of different meds, but when I moved to San Francisco the next year, I went off the meds because my doctor was back in another state. But I started doing the recluse thing, and eating everything in sight to self-medicate, so I went to a doctor, and then a therapist, too. Got on new meds, and have been slowly making progress. It was a long haul, though.

    Hoping good hopes for you, Ki.

    {{returning hugs}}

  37. crimsonsenya August 13, 2004 at 3:04 pm #

    Re: Whoa!

    That’s about the essence for me too ^_^. However, I joined the Eastern Orthodox church for the beauty of their lithurgy. I don’t want to get to know the people or socialize with anyone. I’m so fed up with all kinds of clicques *sighs*.

    I’m sorry I have to go to sleep now. Angelus is being my nagging you have to go to sleep now clock, lol. Write you tomorrow!

  38. neshaffer August 13, 2004 at 3:07 pm #

    Re: Whoa!

    OK g’night!

  39. crimsonsenya August 14, 2004 at 1:43 am #

    Re: Whoa!

    Basically arguing that “Angelus” is just the negative personality traits of Liam, exaggerated by the lack of a soul and the presence of a demon, while “Angel” are just the good personality traits of Liam, brought out by the presence of a soul. Sounds like a good theory.

    I absolutely must start watching the show ^_^, when it airs(or bits…).

  40. neshaffer August 14, 2004 at 4:28 am #

    Re: Whoa!

    Well, we have finally reached the writing stage after three months (!) of planning. So this show will “air” at some point!

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